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Author Topic: Dave's Meth Track Results  (Read 4944 times)
DaveT
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« on: September 12, 2008, 11:50:00 PM »

I'll soon post the scanned slips and my logs.

I was depressingly running the same times as without meth until I upped the boost to 17psi which dropped me from a 13.79 best time to 13.54 best time!!!  So much for trying to just advance timing and leaving the boost at 15-16!  I about creamed my pants when I saw the slip.  I actually did kinda flip out a little; the guy that handed it to me was laughing. 

I am loosing my clutch though.  After my first two runs the clutch would slip in at least first and second gear which sucks.  For my last run (13.5 run) I pulled out some pliers and adjusted the clutch pedal bolt to try to make sure it wasn't preventing it from engaging all the way.  I was able to get the 13.5 time with the clutch only slipping through first gear.  Maybe I could have hit 13.5 flat?!?

I got to talk to a bazillion people as we were waiting for the Viper to be cleaned up off of the track (stupid new owner).  We should start a CP-E club or something cuz people wanted to talk my ear off about you guys. 

Sleep time.
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2006 MazdaSpeed 6 GT - CPE CAI, CPE DP, CPE FMIC, SBII + Blackbox, HKS BOV, CPE Meth kit, CP-E Rear Engine Mount
ThinkEntropy
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« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2008, 01:49:36 PM »

I'll soon post the scanned slips and my logs.

I was depressingly running the same times as without meth until I upped the boost to 17psi which dropped me from a 13.79 best time to 13.54 best time!!!  So much for trying to just advance timing and leaving the boost at 15-16!  I about creamed my pants when I saw the slip.  I actually did kinda flip out a little; the guy that handed it to me was laughing. 

I am loosing my clutch though.  After my first two runs the clutch would slip in at least first and second gear which sucks.  For my last run (13.5 run) I pulled out some pliers and adjusted the clutch pedal bolt to try to make sure it wasn't preventing it from engaging all the way.  I was able to get the 13.5 time with the clutch only slipping through first gear.  Maybe I could have hit 13.5 flat?!?

I got to talk to a bazillion people as we were waiting for the Viper to be cleaned up off of the track (stupid new owner).  We should start a CP-E club or something cuz people wanted to talk my ear off about you guys. 

Sleep time.

That's pretty fantastic Dave, especially considering your elevation, and what was the temp like that night by the way? Trap speed?

How much timing did you end up advancing before upping the boost?  I wonder if you exceeded the minimum best timing?  In any event, 17psi is a good pressure for the stock turbo.  How is the Standback holding pressure for you?  Have you optimized the PID parameters at all from the default values?

About the clutch, look into the SPEC clutches.  You might contact Donny from the RPMStore because he carries them, and is a good guy:

http://www.therpmstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=91&products_id=448

I've felt the pedal effort on the 2+ and it isn't bad at all.  Very doable. 

One thing that you might consider though is that with a nice clutch there will be less "slip" in the drivetrain, so you'll be delivering more of a shock to the individual components.  It also sounds like you're making darn good power, so at the very least make sure that your side and rear diff bracket bolts are tight (and we can talk about getting you one of our rear diff brackets) otherwise they may back out and break something. 

Congratulations on the new best times man!
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DaveT
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2008, 10:10:14 PM »

That's pretty fantastic Dave, especially considering your elevation, and what was the temp like that night by the way? Trap speed?
The elevation is 1200ft according to the track's website.  The temperature was 92F.  I'm including the log so you can look at it all you want, but the real trap speed was 101.2mph.  The log was slow on almost all the numbers.  My 60' was 1.92 for example.
Quote
How much timing did you end up advancing before upping the boost?  I wonder if you exceeded the minimum best timing?  In any event, 17psi is a good pressure for the stock turbo.  How is the Standback holding pressure for you?  Have you optimized the PID parameters at all from the default values?
I had been running 2 degrees until 5200 rpm where I went down to 1 degree.  I changed that to 1 degree across the board from 3000rpm up when I changed to 17psi for my last run.  I am now convinced that the changing of the timing to be the same was actually what gave me the boost, not the 17psi.  I was noticing on all my logs with the 2-1 degree slope that the engine would be around 12degrees until it hit the edge of that slope, then it'd drop down to 9-10 degrees and took a while to build back up to 12degrees.  I think it flipped out when the SB changed how much it was lying by and pulled timing until things evened out.  The reason I don't think the 17psi really helped is that i had a log from two days prior with a 16-15psi boost map that actually pulled much harder even than this 13.5 run.  The real difference between my 13.5 log and the other 13.9 logs seems to be that I hold that 12 degrees pretty consistently through the run.  I'm really stoked about the possibilities now, if only my clutch will last through another punishing with another tune. 
You will be able to see the clutch slipping through all of 1st gear in the 13.5 log I've attached.  That had the added benefit of lying to the ECU about the gear the car was in (rpms vs car speed didn't line up with 1st gear on the internal lookup tables) which made me actually hit target boost at the END of the 1st gear (normally dies off then).  I've actually talked to Lou about another flash that will tell the ECU you are always in 4th gear.  From my logs you'll see that the first three gears don't even get ful boost for, I think, that reason.  Jordan, I know you said that it was because there wasn't enough load in the first few gears to hit target boost, but if that were the case, the wastegate would be inactive as you would never build up enough to start "throwing it out".  That isn't the case, it's pulling it down in the first 3 gears.  Talk about an instant free 2 tenths off your quarter mile if we fix that one!

As you can see, I need to tweak my pid coefs some more.  I just can't seem to get them right.  They seem to get good, but then a few days later it looks like this.
Quote
About the clutch, look into the SPEC clutches.  You might contact Donny from the RPMStore because he carries them, and is a good guy:

http://www.therpmstore.com/product_info.php?cPath=91&products_id=448

I've felt the pedal effort on the 2+ and it isn't bad at all.  Very doable. 
Looks good, except for the price.  Hah.  Yeah, I know that's just what they cost.  The clutch is fine in the daily drive.  Just when I get it all warmed up and drop the clutch it now slips.
Quote
One thing that you might consider though is that with a nice clutch there will be less "slip" in the drivetrain, so you'll be delivering more of a shock to the individual components.  It also sounds like you're making darn good power, so at the very least make sure that your side and rear diff bracket bolts are tight (and we can talk about getting you one of our rear diff brackets) otherwise they may back out and break something. 
Good idea.  I'll have to just figure out where the side and rear diff bracket bolts are! I'm such a newb.

On a side note, my consistent 13s on the track drew a little attention from some others there, especially when I got kicked out until someone lent me a helmet.  I got a few Speed3 people talking to me and giving me their info to "chat" as there weren't sure why they were only running 14.4-14.6 (like me before the SB taught me how to drive).  I think it'd be good if I could get some CPE logos to throw on my car as free advertising for you.  I could drum us up some business.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 10:29:09 PM by DaveT » Logged

2006 MazdaSpeed 6 GT - CPE CAI, CPE DP, CPE FMIC, SBII + Blackbox, HKS BOV, CPE Meth kit, CP-E Rear Engine Mount
DaveT
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2008, 10:59:11 PM »

Slips.  Ignore the bug guts on the one...  Cheesy

Notice the difference with the 13.5 run was largely in the first 330 feet.  I think this was because I actually hit target boost in first gear.  I'll have to pick through the logs more though.

Sorry, they're not in order. 

They started having problems with their 1/8 mile trap speed sensor at the end of the night.  So, no I wasn't really going 21mph in my last log.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 11:18:10 PM by DaveT » Logged

2006 MazdaSpeed 6 GT - CPE CAI, CPE DP, CPE FMIC, SBII + Blackbox, HKS BOV, CPE Meth kit, CP-E Rear Engine Mount
DaveT
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« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2008, 11:00:23 PM »

Logs
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 11:02:03 PM by DaveT » Logged

2006 MazdaSpeed 6 GT - CPE CAI, CPE DP, CPE FMIC, SBII + Blackbox, HKS BOV, CPE Meth kit, CP-E Rear Engine Mount
ThinkEntropy
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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2008, 07:12:03 AM »

I had been running 2 degrees until 5200 rpm where I went down to 1 degree.  I changed that to 1 degree across the board from 3000rpm up when I changed to 17psi for my last run.  I am now convinced that the changing of the timing to be the same was actually what gave me the boost, not the 17psi.  I was noticing on all my logs with the 2-1 degree slope that the engine would be around 12degrees until it hit the edge of that slope, then it'd drop down to 9-10 degrees and took a while to build back up to 12degrees.  I think it flipped out when the SB changed how much it was lying by and pulled timing until things evened out.  The reason I don't think the 17psi really helped is that i had a log from two days prior with a 16-15psi boost map that actually pulled much harder even than this 13.5 run.  The real difference between my 13.5 log and the other 13.9 logs seems to be that I hold that 12 degrees pretty consistently through the run.  I'm really stoked about the possibilities now, if only my clutch will last through another punishing with another tune.
 

This is all a lot of good information.  It looks like you're getting a good hold of how the car reacts to tuning changes!

I think the inconsistent timing /could be/ knock related.  Usually the car will pull timing when knock is sensed, and I'm wondering if the extra degree or two of timing that you were adding was enough to trigger some knock.  Are you making these timing changes while spraying meth?

You will be able to see the clutch slipping through all of 1st gear in the 13.5 log I've attached.  That had the added benefit of lying to the ECU about the gear the car was in (rpms vs car speed didn't line up with 1st gear on the internal lookup tables) which made me actually hit target boost at the END of the 1st gear (normally dies off then).  I've actually talked to Lou about another flash that will tell the ECU you are always in 4th gear.  From my logs you'll see that the first three gears don't even get ful boost for, I think, that reason.  Jordan, I know you said that it was because there wasn't enough load in the first few gears to hit target boost, but if that were the case, the wastegate would be inactive as you would never build up enough to start "throwing it out".  That isn't the case, it's pulling it down in the first 3 gears.  Talk about an instant free 2 tenths off your quarter mile if we fix that one!

Will you expand on this a little bit?  I have to be honest, I'm still not yet good at graphing with the Blackbox software so its hard for me to get a good look at what os happening at the top of 1st.  Give me a call if that'll be easier to explain.

As you can see, I need to tweak my pid coefs some more.  I just can't seem to get them right.  They seem to get good, but then a few days later it looks like this.

Excellent.  I've gotten reall good at PID tweaking, so if you can shoot me some logs where you're missing your boost target I can send you some new coefficients to try. 

Good idea.  I'll have to just figure out where the side and rear diff bracket bolts are! I'm such a newb.

LOL, no worries Dave, we all have to start somewhere!!  The next time you plan on working on the underside of your car let me know and I'll send some brief instructions your way.

On a side note, my consistent 13s on the track drew a little attention from some others there, especially when I got kicked out until someone lent me a helmet.  I got a few Speed3 people talking to me and giving me their info to "chat" as there weren't sure why they were only running 14.4-14.6 (like me before the SB taught me how to drive).  I think it'd be good if I could get some CPE logos to throw on my car as free advertising for you.  I could drum us up some business.

That's a great idea.  We're in the process of making some logos for a new sponsor in PA, so we'll send you some images of the graphics to see if you're interested in any of them.  I think that'd be a tremendous advertisement, especially considering the times you're running!
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DaveT
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2008, 09:10:33 AM »

This is all a lot of good information.  It looks like you're getting a good hold of how the car reacts to tuning changes!
I finally feel a bit more "empowered".  That's just from getting familiar with looking at the logged data from my runs and recognizing some patterns.
Quote
I think the inconsistent timing /could be/ knock related.  Usually the car will pull timing when knock is sensed, and I'm wondering if the extra degree or two of timing that you were adding was enough to trigger some knock.  Are you making these timing changes while spraying meth?

I am pretty sure it's not knock related for this reason: I had no audible detonation in the early 2deg - 15.5psi runs, but a BUNCH in that last run with 1deg - 17psi and STILL had less "hiccups" in that one.
Quote

Will you expand on this a little bit?  I have to be honest, I'm still not yet good at graphing with the Blackbox software so its hard for me to get a good look at what is happening at the top of 1st.  Give me a call if that'll be easier to explain.

I'll give you a call or this would be really long
Quote

Excellent.  I've gotten reall good at PID tweaking, so if you can shoot me some logs where you're missing your boost target I can send you some new coefficients to try. 
cool beans.
Quote
LOL, no worries Dave, we all have to start somewhere!!  The next time you plan on working on the underside of your car let me know and I'll send some brief instructions your way.

Josh sent me an engine mount so I'll be putting that in sometime this week.  I'll try to follow your instructions then I guess.
Quote

That's a great idea.  We're in the process of making some logos for a new sponsor in PA, so we'll send you some images of the graphics to see if you're interested in any of them.  I think that'd be a tremendous advertisement, especially considering the times you're running!
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2006 MazdaSpeed 6 GT - CPE CAI, CPE DP, CPE FMIC, SBII + Blackbox, HKS BOV, CPE Meth kit, CP-E Rear Engine Mount
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